Debate, Fascism and Patriots

My, my. So it seems that anyone who questions the war in Iraq is really a Nazi sympathizer. Or is it collaborator and appeaser? Econo-Girl can't always keep these things straight.

Having read "Saddam's Bombmaker" years ago, Saddam Hussein certainly reminded Econo-Girl of Hitler in many ways. The key difference would be an ability to go to war with the entire world. Wasn't that what the first Gulf War was about? Stopping Saddam Hussein? And didn't we succeed?

So here we are, fulfilling the President's Oedipal drive, and people have the nerve to complain! Debate isn't patriotic, you know. That's why I was fired. Like a fascist, I try to discuss an issue of relevance to the entire Intelligence community: torture.

At the risk of being arrested, I will raise another: torture and our failures in Iraq. As a French soldier during the Battle of Algiers remarked: "And what to do with these poor devils after their use? There isn't enough place in the prisons and one can't kill everyone..., so one releases them and they're going to tell others, and from mouth to mouth, the whole world knows. Then their relatives and friends join the resistance." See "Does Torture Work" by Darius Rejali at Salon.com.

Don't you think our harsh treatment and downright abuse of detainees and prisoners has at least some bearing on how the war in Iraq is coming along?


Erik said...

Of course the standard definition of fascism doesn't fit the group (once a small group, now a huge one because Bush has been kicking every beehive he can find) of bad guys who've decided to make war on the West. That is, those of us who know some modern history know this. But Rove is aware that most Americans don't know a bit of history, and so he decided Bush should pre-empt the use of the word fascist, thereby taking it out of the control of those of us who know a fascist (Cheney/Rummie/Wolfie) when we see one.

Anonymous said...

Which brings us to the word "guy." There was once a little power struggle between the Pope and a certain King. Guido, caught up in the hostilities of the moment, was doomed the minute he warned some friends they might want to be absent at the opening ceremony. England's most famous terrorist was caught in time, and all that gunpowder was saved - not to mention the House of Commons, Lords, and the King.

Fortunately for Guido, England had laws prohibiting torture. Unfortunately for Guido, the Crown could, and did, override those laws. (Hmmm....)

The specialized arts did the job and Guido spilled the beans, and later his guts. The conspirators were rounded up and dispatched. The Brits, who were always fond of their scoundrels, came to celebrate this each year by lighting unauthorized bonfires and putting "guy" into the vernacular.

The King went on to become famous for commissioning the "King James version" of the Holy Bible.

And so the screw turns.

Fuzz said...

I am sure the abuse of detainees is a factor and it makes me ashamed.

The Lazy Iguana said...

Bush and his henchmen are grasping at straws here.

His is getting more and more unpopular. Very few things Bush has said will happen has come to be. Remember the prediction that the people of Iraq would throw roses at the feet of American troops for liberating their nation?

SO what to do now. Mid term elections are here you know. If the Republicans loose this, there might be real investigations into what is going on. Can't have that!

So they use the F word. Americans, in general, know little or nothing about fascism. Just ask someone if you think I am wrong.

But, they know that Nazi Germany could be called fascist. And they know that the Italian Government of the same time period WAS fascist. Both bad.

So why not just lump terrorism as fascism. After all, we beat the nazis. Italy is not fascist now. WE WON that war! And look at Germany and Italy now. Our friends. Full open trade. Safe places for Americans to visit.

The perfect thing for those grasping at straws to latch onto.

It is better than allowing people to face the reality, right before the mid term elections. And that reality is that we are fighting this "new war" using the same old primitive methods. We will be unsuccessful for the same reasons the Russians were. Occupation will not work. There is no government to sign a treaty with. Nobody can surrender and end the war.

About the only WWII analogy we can draw is we are the Germans, and terrorists are the French Resistance. The more stuff we blow up the more popular support the resistance has.

Econo-Girl said...

Guy Fawlkes, if I'm spelling it right. Great point, I must say. The distinguishing characteristics would be 1 - a plot in progress, 2 - exact date that the event was known to occur, 3 - a known person in that plot.

No let's contrast that with grabbing people near a car bombing, beating them up or worse, taking a few to another location to really beat on or even torture "to get information out of them."

I would say there is a difference. And I would also say that certainly investigative techniques have advanced to the point where torture would not be needed.

The Lazy Iguana said...

This "Guy" dude would have probably fought alongside George Washington.

By the way, had the crown ever captured George Washington he would have been a "terrorist" and subject to torture and execution.

And yet the people of the USA celebrate him as our first president.

This is the flaw in the "torture or kill them all" theory of fighting the war on terror. Those getting killed are celebrated as "freedom fighters" and their deaths are used to recruit more terrorists.

But....why let a little logic get in the way of all the profit to be made!

Anonymous said...

I don't know if Washington would have been executed as a terrorist. Most likely he would have been tried and hanged for treason.

The Revolutionary war does offer some interesting insights into propaganda. Check out the pathetic event known as "The Boston Massacre" Five colonialists were killed when an unruly, rock throwing, mob got out of control and some redcoats fired into the crowd. This, ahem, massacre, became the defining spark igniting the war.

Interestingly, the redcoats that fired were prosecuted by the Crown and were defended by, among others, John Adams, who later went on to become the second president. Most of the redcoats were acquitted by jurors from the Colonies.

Good old Ben Franklin was well known for stating that we all must "Hang together" or surely we shall "hang seperately."

As for Guido (Guy) Fawkes, what has always amazed me is how little people change under pressure. We remain animals striving for a more noble existence... often failing.